Photo Credit: John Payne

As one of the original architects behind the rise of Death Row Records, John Payne played a pivotal role in building one of the most influential—and infamous—labels in Hip-Hop history. While figures like Dr. Dre, and Snoop Dogg often dominate the headlines, Payne’s early business vision and behind-the-scenes groundwork helped lay the foundation for the label’s explosive success in the ’90s.

Still involved with the Snoop Dogg-led Death Row Records today, Payne recently donated artifacts from those early days to The Hip Hop Museum, including the original Death Row Records jacket and hats worn by the label’s founding members and artists.

The Hip Hop Museum caught up with Payne to discuss his donations, what made Death Row a family, and more.

Adam Aziz: In the early days of Death Row Records, could you and others tell what you were creating from a cultural perspective?

John Payne: No, but I could see something that really intrigued me. The fact that all the artists and people working there didn’t know the rules made it easier for them to be more creative. The fact that the artists were coming into the industry and had pure, honest references when they wrote songs made it all very natural. They weren’t trying to please themselves. They spoke on what they knew. I always felt like I needed to protect them. Even today, they’re like my little family.

I mean, I guess I could see it, but I always knew there would be a time when there would be all this money and all these people grabbing at them for things, and that can be hard on artists.

There hasn’t been trouble with Death Row in 30 years, but when there was, the bulk of the problems didn’t come from the artists. If you put it in perspective, I’ve worked with a lot of Rock artists. If you look at some of the things that happened at Death Row and then compare it to what occurred with Rock groups in the 80s—drugs, driving cars off of cliffs—it’s like nothing.

AA: A lot of what we’ve read about Death Row in its heyday and through documentaries that have been produced is that it was constant chaos, drama, and violence. How much of that was true versus media amplification?

JP: I’m going to answer that question with a question. If that were true, wouldn’t everyone have been arrested? Everything was blown out of proportion. If one person does something, they are going to run with it. They were up and coming, and people wanted to shut them down. Think about this. When they are talking about all this stuff that’s going on, nobody’s getting arrested. Nobody is going to the hospital. Nobody is on bond. The media is what blew Death Row out of proportion. The media’s influence is also what created egos within the organization.

AA: Do you still speak to Suge Knight? And, if he gets out, do you envision a world where he goes back to music? Can you talk about your relationship with him?

JP: I go way back with Suge prior to Death Row. I met him through Wes Crockett. The original Suge that I met was a really good guy. We were helping artists. And this goes back to what I was saying earlier about the media and egos. When things started to take off, the egos blew out of proportion.

Personally, I can’t say anything bad about him because he and I never had issues. However, there are things that were done on his behalf that I don’t like and don’t respect.

I look at labels like Motown and others, where the artists were only as good as their last hit. When I look at examples where labels are making all this money and the artists are broke, I see people who had nothing to do with the success of the label with new cars, and the artists have on old shoes.

Suge didn’t come from the industry, so being around the vultures may have had something to do with why things went the way they did. Because, believe me, I’m sure he was getting ripped off more than he was aware of. They could give him a hundred million dollars because they made half a billion.

They would keep Suge in a place where he felt powerful, but when shit hit the fan, did they come to save him? They didn’t save him. I don’t blame him for how he turned out, but I also do blame him at the same time.

AA: In hindsight, do you think it was a good idea for 2Pac to sign with Death Row?

JP: Well, I wasn’t a part of that. So, to say if it was a good thing or not, I would have to know all the circumstances involved. But we know how everything ended.

I love and respect all the artists. I still talk to many of them to this day. Unfortunately, I’ve attended a lot of funerals, but they’re all my friends. I’ll call them and say, hey, what’s in the refrigerator? I’ll say, let me talk to the kids. This is where it was back, even the day we started. I’m happy to be a part of the legacy.

When I left death row for the first time, people asked why I was leaving when things were going so well. I said because if I don’t leave now, I won’t be able to save myself. But if I leave now and save myself, I can always come back later. And that’s what we’re doing now. And it’s something that Snoop is 1000% percent behind. We’re trying to get everybody’s rights back, not just his own.

AA: The donations you made to The Hip Hop Museum are incredible, especially the original Death Row jacket. We don’t see the iconic electric chair on it. Talk to me about that item.

Original Death Row Records jacket – Photo credit: John Payne

JP: Michael “Harry-O” Harris wanted to introduce the company when he became part of the Death Row family. His theory was that we always had to be suited and booted, but he also wanted to make a statement. The jacket was made by Jonathan Logan, who made all the jackets that Arsenio Hall was wearing. These jackets were $2,000 each, and we gave out eighteen of them. There are quite a few people I know who still have them. Lady of Rage still has hers. Snoop’s is probably stashed, too, because people didn’t sell them or throw them away.

We all felt connected to the jacket, which is why I donated mine. You can tell people everything about the jacket, but they need to be able to see and touch it.

AA: And talks to me about the original Death Row hat you donated.

Original Death Row Records hat – Photo credit: John Payne

JP: We’re donating. Kevyn Woods, that’s my brother, he’s one of the first people I met at Death Row. I knew Suge and them but when I stepped off the elevator at Death Row, K Dubb was there. He was a young guy.  He’s still high up at Death Row today. He went to the Compton swap meet and bought hats. To keep it real, he was a blood. Everybody was wearing this Death Row hat. It was another form of unity because we were just getting started.

The Death Row Records offices were in the Solar Records building in Hollywood, and many people around the label had never been to Hollywood. When K Dubb bought all those hats and put Death Row Records on them, they didn’t need a logo. We didn’t have a logo then, but it worked. It still works on the hats. You get the name recognition first; then, you get the logo.

AA: One artist on Death Row that I always thought should have been more commercially successful is Lady of Rage.

JP: She’s a really good person. Extremely talented. I got nothing but love for Robin. She laid back and let things move. She was there in the beginning. She didn’t run away. She was there supporting and helping everybody. But that’s the family element I was telling you about.

AA: What will it mean to you that Hip Hop will finally have its own Museum and a physical space to celebrate the culture?

JP: It’s important because people will be able to see this and celebrate the culture, but most importantly, the families of the artists will get to see this.

I’ll use an example. Jewell, who passed away, and before she passed away, K-Dubb and I would do this weekly livestream on Instagram. Jewell had pulmonary fibrosis, which is a lung condition. Everybody would be calling into the stream – D.O.C., Daz, Kurupt, and Jewell said she wanted to do it. She got on the stream, and all the fans were commenting, and she started to sing. After the stream, I was talking to her, and her son said, “I’ve never seen my mom like that. I never knew people loved my mother like this.” That’s what got me.

Follow John Payne on Instagram.