The Wu-Tang Clan’s “W” is one of the most famous logos in music, and it was designed by Mathematics. A Queens native who came up DJing park jams in Baisley Park before spinning for GZA during his Cold Chillin’ days, Mathematics has been part of the Wu-Tang story from the very beginning as the group’s longtime DJ and one of its key producers.
More than three decades after Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers), the Clan is heading into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, with the induction ceremony set for November 14 in Los Angeles.
Mathematics is still building, too. Following 2025’s Black Samson, The Bastard Swordsman, his new project, Black Samson: The Saga Continues, arrives November 6. Produced entirely by Mathematics, it features Method Man, AZ, Inspectah Deck, Masta Killa, Cormega, Planet Asia, and more.
The Hip Hop Museum caught up with Mathematics to talk about the Wu’s Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction, the graffiti roots of the Wu-Tang logo, what the Wu taught him about ownership, streaming versus physical, his new project, and more.
Adam Aziz: With the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction coming up in November, I want to go back to the beginning. When you guys formed Wu-Tang, what was your vision? Did it look anything like this, or did you even have one?
Mathematics: I started out with GZA. I was DJing for GZA when he was on Cold Chillin’. And I went on that Cold Chillin’ Blizzard Tour. I was real excited to be on that with all the legends that was on there. Kool G Rap, and Biz Markie, rest in peace, and Masta Ace, Craig G. All the dudes that I looked up to.
Hip Hop was always fun for me. It was always a hobby. It was always like a way of life, that’s exactly what it is. From the time I first seen it, when it was like the uprocking at the center, seeing the dudes coming with the Kangols, you know, the mock necks and all that back then is what caught my eye.
So this was not my vision. I never thought that Hip Hop would be able to pay the bills, put kids through college. I never thought that. RZA had a vision. RZA had a vision when he gathered all the brothers up, and he saw a lot of things that brothers didn’t see that actually came into fruition. Even getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, from when we were first eligible, I was like, “We ain’t getting into no Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,” you know, even at this stage. But then I’m like, yeah, you never know. We have been active. We’ve been doing our part, and we’re still here. And actually, our whole production and value just every year kept increasing, increasing with the type of shows that, you know, brothers put together. So here we are, Rock and Roll.
AA: What was it like in the early days, building this from the street and just having fun? And then when the momentum hit, like seeing 5,000, 10,000 people overseas, how surreal was that?
Mathematics: Yeah, surreal. That’s the right word. Like, certain things are still surreal to this day, as far as even me with creating the Wu-Tang logo and seeing it all over the place. I mean, it’s still surreal.
I used to do park jams back in the ’80s in Baisley Projects in Baisley Park. The parks would be filled with a lot of people.
I remember ’88, I went out with a brother from my way, his name was Mr. X. He had a record called “We Drink Old Gold,” which was a parody of Rakim’s “I Know You Got Soul.”
It was the actual first tour I ever went on, but it was only in New York City. It was a five-borough tour, but it gave me the experience.
So it was the park jam parties, the block parties, always going up. So when Wu-Tang started doing shows and going overseas and doing arenas – I remember one of the shows that really caught me like, “Wow, I’m really here,” was when we performed with George Clinton in Amsterdam. He had the whole production and everything. Even Metallica, when we did Lollapalooza. That was a heavy rock-and-roll show.
I remember Metallica from elementary school. I was one of them kids that was bused out. I went to P.S. 144 in Forest Hills, Queens, and it was filled with like the white boys, and they was having the Metallica jackets and all that. So when I performed with them, it was like, yo, I’m rocking with Metallica! Like that’s crazy.
AA: You’ve talked before about how leverage has always been central to the Wu, like the Loud deal that let everyone sign their own solo deals. Having been there from day one as the brand was built, what did that teach you about ownership and control over your own projects and music?
Mathematics: Definitely have to sit and watch, and you have to learn. It was brothers like RZA, Divine, Power—rest in peace—who were going out there, walking a lot of these deals, and putting brothers in certain positions. You learn from them. You always got to learn, whether, you know, the good—you got to take in the good and the bad, and always got to learn how to fine-tune things and be patient. It’s hard to get it right, but that’s one thing people got to understand too in this business: before you sign them contracts, everything is negotiable. So it’s like, talk.
See, sometimes, people will be like—I had a lawyer one time, and I remember going through a certain situation, and the lawyer told me, “Well, you know, this is standard.” I’m like, “But I don’t want standard.” You know what I mean? It’s like, let’s push it. The worst they can say is no.
So you got to remember that at the end of the day, know your worth. And at the same time, you have to have an understanding of the business, too, because sometimes what you may ask for at the time may be something crazy. Know exactly what you’re worth in that day and time, and what you’re willing to settle for, or what you’re willing to walk away from. If you can’t do it, then don’t do it. If it’s not worth your time, or it’s not worth your energy, your money—if it’s not worth the money that’s coming in, or if it’s not worth even your happiness, don’t do it.
AA: I still remember skipping school to go buy the Wu-Tang Forever album. I don’t think fans get that experience anymore. With streaming, something drops, and five minutes later something else does, and nobody has time to really take it in. How do you feel about streaming versus physical, and has music been devalued?
Mathematics: Well, for one, it’s definitely oversaturated, especially with AI and a lot of the technology that’s been coming out for the last decade, where everybody feels like they’re a producer, everybody feels like they’re an MC. And, you know, it made it really accessible for any and everybody to make music. So talent is a lot less—it’s harder to find because it’s oversaturated with people.
And I’m going to say this too: talented individuals a lot of the time have a certain mentality because they are talented. It’s like, you know, they hustle—sometimes they don’t have the drive, they don’t have the hustle. While somebody else may not have the talent, but they got the hustle. And they’re going to go get it. You got to have both. I mean, Michael Jackson had the hustle. He seen Off the Wall, you know, he felt like that wasn’t where it should have been. So when he went and did Thriller, he went all out, and look what he did with it.
But to answer your question, as far as streaming, I really don’t like streaming. But that’s just me personally, my opinion of it. But I’m in the record business, so you have to deal with streaming.
Physical is different. Like you said, you went and cut school to go get that physical. See, that’s when you know as a musician, as an artist, who your fans are—who really love and go and support you and your music, because they’re willing to go out of their way to go stand in long lines and pay their money to get your album. Nowadays, with streaming, I mean, you pay for a subscription and you can listen to anything at your fingertips.
I just seen Scarface saying why he didn’t want to make another album. He was basically saying because it’s not worth it for him. I’m sure he got the love there, but this business—it’s still a business at the end of the day.
For me, I love it too much to stop, and I would keep doing it regardless. Like if I wasn’t—even if I wasn’t a DJ, I would still be DJing because I love to DJ. You know, making beats or making music—I love to do that now. Now that’s just something I do and try to get better at because you live, you learn, you experience. So my understanding of music is something different. But I want to be fairly compensated for my time, my energy, and what I do. And I don’t think streaming does that. I mean, who set the guidelines? Who was the person who actually came and said, “For streaming, this is what we going to pay them”?
AA: Before we get to the new project: I heard you say your graffiti writing helped inspire the creation of the Wu logo. Can you talk about your graffiti history and what you were doing before all this?
Mathematics: I did everything as far as Hip Hop goes, from breakdancing to popping to MCing to the graffiti. I had got down with a graffiti crew when I was in junior high school. I could draw. I went to high school for commercial art. I didn’t go that direction, but that’s what I went for. I loved graffiti, I used to do graffiti, I used to draw. So I had different letterings and different types of styles. You know, every graffiti artist does. So it definitely played a part in making that “W.”
AA: On the new project, Black Samson: The Saga Continues, I noticed Meth and AZ on a track together, which I’m pretty sure is a first. They’ve never lost a step. Having worked with both over the years, what do you think lets them still sound like they did 25 years ago?
Mathematics: Passion. You got to have that—you got to have a passion. Like Meth acts. He does a lot of things, wears a lot of hats. Great performer, one of the greatest ever to hit that stage as far as Hip Hop goes. When it comes to that pen, like he takes everything seriously. He takes that pen game very seriously. He’s one of the brothers that inspire me. I got to keep my game up because of brothers like that.
And AZ’s another. When it comes to real lyricists that’s what they do. It’s like they could pull that pen out anytime. It’s like a swordsman. It’s like, don’t test that man right there. Like, he got the experience, and he got the skill set that will slice and dice you up.
And those is two swordsmen, master swordsmen. So them two coming together, and I was able to make that happen—I mean, for me, it feels great, you know, because AZ’s like one of my favorite MCs. He’s always had a crazy pen game from the first time I heard him on “Life’s a Bitch.” It’s his flow, his voice, his style, cadence, how he be breaking shit down, he nice. Meth the same way. Like Meth, his flow is crazy. Meth is going—he going to dance on you.
You got to have that passion. It’s like, same thing with making music: if I ain’t got that passion, if I’m not feeling it like that particular moment, I step away. Because when I feel it—it could be three in the morning—I feel it, I got to hit it. That’s when it’s going to come. It’s like you got to take advantage of that.
AA: Two of my favorites on the project are ‘Hustle’ and ‘Knowledge, My Wisdom.’ Tell me about those records: who’s on them, and why they made the cut?
Mathematics: Oh yeah, because “Knowledge, My Wisdom”—you got Masta Killa, Inspectah Deck on it, Planet Asia, and Poppa Wu. Poppa Wu dropping the jewels. That’s “Knowledge, My Wisdom.” And, you know, I kept it soulful.
And then “Hustle.” Now “Hustle” is another one that, that’s Cory Gunz, Whispers, and Grafh. And Brother Kaba’s on it. You know, he’s a revolutionary. He’s very intelligent, um, and he dropped some jewels.
And the song is basically what brothers did at one time. That’s what they rhyming about, like what they did at one time to get by. And Kaba is just telling you, “well, look, you could go this way or that way, but this is the intention, the way you going. This is where they want you to end up.”
AA: With the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame next month in mind, I want to go back to The Hip Hop Museum. Hip Hop artists are in the Rock Hall, but so are rock and pop artists. Why is it important for Hip Hop to have a museum of its own?
Mathematics: Because we on our own. We got to have our own community, because even though you got the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, you also have different award shows that validate different genres. You got the Country Music Awards, see what I’m You had the Soul Train Awards.
But for Hip Hop, Hip Hop is special because it started from nothing. You know, like Grandmaster Caz, he say it all the time: “Hip Hop didn’t invent anything, but it reinvented everything.” And he got a point. It influenced so much—from politicians, governors, and mayors, and presidents, to TV shows and movies.
Yeah, I mean, it’s everything. So Hip Hop needs that, and to be able to tell our own story. Because, you know, some people may not get it right, some people might want to change things, and it’s like, nah, let’s catch this right now while all these pioneers are still alive. While they still able to talk and tell these stories.
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